Yang after Yin

[maunamove]

Hi

I'd like to know if it can be dangerous to do yang yoga (or ballistic stretching such as wushu's) right after a yin yoga practice. What are the subtle consequences?

Thanks!

[Bernie]

I have discussed this topic in more detail in an article I wrote a while back called Creep and Counterposes. Here is an extract from that which may be helpful for you:

• Give yourself time to recover before subjecting your body to dynamic, large stresses after you have been doing long-held static stresses. Do counter-movements to help speed up the recovery time. Do not rely only on a long shavasana; even a 20-minute shavasana may not be sufficient to remove all the creep that crept in during your practice.
  
  If you want to do a yang practice and a yin practice together, it may be wise to interlace the two styles, with 10~15 minutes of yin postures followed by 5~10 minutes of yang movements; followed by another session of yin; then yang again, alternating but not going beyond 5 minutes in any one particular yin posture. This is not to say that 45 minutes of yin, followed by 45 minutes of yang is wrong, but care should be taken to make sure that you don't stress the areas worked in the yin session when you do the yang practice. Work different parts--for example - if you worked the spine in your yin practice, do yang postures that do not require much movement or stress of the spine. Standing postures focusing on the legs may work best now.

Cheers
Bernie

[maunamove]

Thanks a lot! So much helpful! the answer came before a saw this video where this guy combines yin and yang type of stretches, what do you think about that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HVsDRjOHqU

[Bernie]

I see this video as only offering yang stretches, and very ballistic at that. His suggestion of a 90 sec stretch is not very yin: we would hold for longer than that. But, with the yin stress (or even a 90 sec stretch) there will be a lot of creep which reduces the tolerance of the tissues (the fascia, ligaments and tendons) which increases the risk of injury to them. I would not want to add a lot of ballistic stress to these tissues right afterwards, not without letting the creep go away.

Everyone is different: some people will have no problem doing what he suggests, but these people would be in the minority. His suggestion to do this first thing in the morning is also not great advise for most people: that is when the discs are most hydrated and the ligaments along the spine very stressed. Adding ballistic movements then could be quite dangerous for most people.

Before doing any of these things, I would have to ask, "Why?" Why do you want to do these exercises? What is your intention? Whatever answer you come up with, it seems to me that there are a lot safer ways to get there.

Cheers

[maunamove]

Thanks again for your advice, I would have done what he suggested. I've just finished to read your yin yoga book and now I understand how it works roughly. I think I'll start to do a yin stretch of achilles tendon held for longer (seeking deep tissues health) in the morning and do the ballistic stretch in the evening (for performance, mostly trying to target the muscles)

[Bernie]

I would still ask what your intentions are. Do you want to just get more flexible, at all/any cost or ??? I had that intention once, but now my intention is to regain and maintain optimal health. Physically that means optimizing strength, mobility and endurance. Note: optimize is not maximize.

There is no health benefit to being maximally flexible. Injuries happen more often to very flexible people than stiff guys. This is why I chose the word mobility, rather than flexibility. Mobility is the ease with which you can move through an appropriate range of motion to function in your life (including any sports you enjoy). My physical fitness regime includes weight training (kettle bells), endurance building (sprinting) and mobility training (yin yoga) and balancing exercises to build coordination (standing yoga postures.)

Cheers!

[maunamove]

I'm willing to train maximal flexibility/mobility to have many more movement options while dancing or practicing martial arts. But I'm very interested at achieving any goal safely, keeping a healthy body. I practice Gymnastics Strength Training, various martial arts and contemporary/break dance. Do you still suggest not to try to reach maximal flexibility?
why do very flexible people risk more than stiff people?

Thanks for caring!

[Bernie]

Your questions are valid but to fully answer them would require me to write a book, which in fact I have done! If you are keen to learn more about this, check out Your Body, Your Yoga. In the meantime, I can say a few things; in life -- seek balance! Too much or too little is rarely healthy. You can be too flexible! You can be too stiff. Why do you want extreme flexibility: it is not healthy nor functional. Each joint requires both stability and mobility: if you overstretch the joint, you are making it unstable which means it won't be able to support you in times of extreme stress. Yes, a joint can be too stiff and affect your mobility as well, so seek the Goldilocks' position.

For example: take the hamstrings. These really should be called the hamsprings! If they are too tight, flexion at the hips can be reduced too much (you can't touch your toes -- but so what?), but if they are too loose, the ability to jump, leap and suddenly explode into extension is lost. Would you want your shock absorbers on your car to be really loose? Too loose and they lose their ability to absorb the shocks. Too tight and they transmit too much as well. Athletes, like basketball players, get their ability to jump high from to the tightness of their tendons and ligaments: the hamsprings and Achilles tendons. When they flex before jumping they tension these tissues and then the recoil from that tension springs back through the legs helping them to jump powerfully. They could not do that if their hamstrings were really loose. I could offer many more examples, but hopefully you get the point.

Very flexible people are more at risk of injury because their joints are less stable than stiff people. Flexible people can ballistically go past the point of their joints' tolerance, and that is where injuries occur. Stiff people will never threaten their joints because they are too stiff and never try to go really deep in any movements. Talk to retired athletes, dancers, gymnasts, etc...they usually have some of the most broken bodies you will ever find! They made a choice between maximizing performance at the expense of health.

Don't seek the maximum, seek the optimum!

Cheers
Bernie

[maunamove]

I understand the point now, thanks to making it clear Bernie!
Some more questions... (I'm pretty stubborn! And I also want to be sure about all my doubts)

1) What if above-average flexibility/mobility (yin) is balanced with above-average joint/muscle strength and rigorous joint/deep tissue pre-habilitation (yang)?

2) Is it possible to reach maximal mobility with yin yoga without realizing it and without any "no-no"?

3) The previous question comes from thinking about Paulie Zink. Did he achieve maximal flexibility (such as head to toe stretch) solely by his long-held ying yoga postures? Is that unhealthy, does he have something that balances that extreme flexibility?

I hope I'm not bothering you with my insistence,

I still thank you for answering so intently

[Bernie]

1) Certainly there are some unique individuals (dancers, elite gymnasts) who have the best of both worlds: large range of motion and strong joints. These unique people have anatomical variations in their bones and joints that are quite rare and even then, they had to work to maximize their abilities.

2) Many people have reached maximum mobility and don't know it. This is how injuries happen: people push past their limits, not realizing that they have already got the most that their body can give them. Pushing past the limit creates injuries. The key is to pay attention to the sensations while in a pose and to understand what is stopping you. (Again, I would recommend you get my book to learn how to do that. In the meantime, you can read this excerpt. Or, find a qualified yoga teacher who has studied anatomical variations.)

3) You would have to ask Paulie Zink that question.

Cheers

[maunamove]

Thanks Bernie

Cheers