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yin poses/osteoporosis

 
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Frank



Joined: 21 Jan 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:37 am    Post subject: yin poses/osteoporosis Reply with quote

Hello,
I've been reading recently on which postures are contraindicated for folks with osteopenia and osteoporosis. Forward bends-reclined spinal twists have come up often of the poses to avoid. I've also heard that one should never do swan/pigeon if diagnosed with either of these.
Swan and reclined spinal twists are easy enough for me to substitute or offer variations of if someone in the class I'm leading needs options.
Forward bends in a yin class however are another animal for me. It seems to me that child pose should be okay if the belly is resting on the thighs as the spine is supported so I would think the chance of a fracture is gone. Also to come out of the posture with the spine long and muscles engaged seems that it would be safe for the spine rather than coming out of it one vertabra at a time. Or to press up to table from child seems safe. I would love it if those with expertise in this area could let me know if I'm on the right track or not.
I've also read that doing forward bends where the legs are over the body so the spine is on the floor are safe. I suppose this is a variation of snail pose or an inverted caterpillar. This makes sense to me-though I've tried it and my breath was quite constricted. Any other thoughts for options of forward bends as long as someone's bone mass density allows such postures would be greatly appreciated or if I'm off base with my thoughts for child please let me know. Thank you and stay safe. Frank.
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kstevely



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 1
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Too Opinionated Reply with quote

Someone sent me a link to this Youtube clip

http://youtu.be/qYfZ7GkD8M8

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this is pretty strong based on one Yin Yoga Class. I've visited one Physiotherapist and I don't make comments on Physiotherapy based on that experience.
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Bernie



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 888
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:49 am    Post subject: Yin Yoga and Osteoporosis Reply with quote

Yin Yoga and Osteoporosis

This comment is in response to the first post in this thread and a request to comment on a video blog posted by Margret Martin, a physiotherapist who recently attended her first Yin Yoga class and was horrified to find that the teacher allowed students to do a forward fold with a rounded spine: her fear was that one of the other students might have osteoporosis and allowing her spine to round would be very dangerous for her.

There are several possible topics that can come out of watching Margrets vBlog: is Osteoporosis a big deal? If it is a big deal, should we address it in every yoga class? If we should address it in every yoga class, should we not allow anyone to flex their spine? If we should allow some students to flex their spine, should we not allow those with osteopenia or osteoporosis to flex their spines? I could also comment on the attitude that Margret expresses while making her comments; she was definitely implying that the teacher of the Yin Yoga class was grossly incompetent and that there are many other such terrible teachers out there and you as a student should be very very afraid and careful not to submit yourself to their teaching. Also implied is that Yin Yoga is a dangerous form of yoga.

Whew! Where to begin? I will make an opening assumption that osteoporosis is a problem for many people (although there is a considerable body of opinion that osteopenia is not a problem and that our current fascination with bone density is an affectation of the drug industry who created this disease where one doesnt really exist: see this article for more on this discussion.)

First several statistics: 50% of North American women and 25% of men will get osteoporosis; 50% of these cases will be in the lumbar spine, 20% in the hips and 10% in the wrists. (See The Complete Guide to Yin Yoga page 213 for details.) So, yes osteoporosis is a big problem, and as Margret says, the chances are if you have students in your class over 50 years old, you probably have students who have osteoporosis to some degree, (but rarely, I would comment, in the upper spine.) Prior to the development of drugs to treat osteoporosis the common suggested treatments were to increase Vitamin D and calcium intake and increase weight-bearing exercise. There are many studies that show exercise is the key: we need to stress bones but not all exercise is equally useful some are beneficial: others harmful.

In Loren Fishmans book Yoga for Osteoporosis he cites a 1984 study done by researchers at the Mayo Clinic that show flexion of the spine is very bad and extension is very good. This study is cited many times in the literature as proof that spinal flexion should be avoided for women with spinal osteoporosis. There are two big points to be made about this study however that we, as yoga teachers and students should be aware of:

1) The flexion exercises in this study were yang exercises: they were basically sit-ups. From this an extrapolation was made that any flexion of the spine was harmful, but this was not what the study claimed.
2) Like all studies, the results were averaged: for most people the exercises were harmful, but for some the exercise may have been neutral or slightly beneficial. Be careful of averages: no one person is average!

It is great that the study showed extension of the spine (basically Locust poses and seated scapular retractions, the kind we do in Eagle Arms) helps reduce the risk of fracture. This shows that we should keep doing extensions of the spine and build spine health. [In the Yin Yoga repertoire, keep offering Sphinx, Seal and Saddle pose.] But are all flexions contra-indicated? I have found no studies that have investigated long held, gentle stress of the spine in flexion and its impact on spinal health. At best we can say we dont know but maybe to avoid any risk we should avoid all flexions: but is this really appropriate?

There used to be a medical philosophy that bed rest was essential for women who had just given birth, as well as for many people recovering from illness. Today we know that for best health we need to mobilize patients as soon as possible. What used to be considered best or safest turned out to be exactly the opposite. Now we have some physiotherapists telling yoga teachers that the best way to help a student with osteoporosis is to never allow any flexion of the spine: is this really the best we can do?

All tissues need stress to become or stay healthy. Too much stress can be harmful but so can too little. The study cited above showed that yang stresses on the spine are not good for women with osteoporosis but they did not study women with osteopenia nor the effect of yin stresses. We have known since the time of Wolff that bones need some stress to remain strong: if we say to never allow any stress of the bones, they will decay.

A muscular stress on the bone generates several times more stress than the bodys own weight can generate (Again I recommend Fishmans book Yoga for Osteoporosis for a good overview of the cellular effects of exercise on our bone cells.) Yang yoga will generate a large amount of transient stress, but Yin Yoga, where we simply use gravity to generate a stress, a much smaller stress, time is the magic ingredient, not intensity.

To never stress the spine is to invite problems: to overstress the spine is to invite problems. We need a Goldilocks amount of stress not too much and not too little. Where is the Goldilocks position is never easy to determine. A student needs to work this out for herself, but of course she can use her yoga teacher and her doctor to help her decide.

To come back to Margrets vBlog: to say never flex the spine is not helpful. The body needs stress to stay healthy; the question is how much? Margret admits to ignorance about Yin Yoga (this was her first class) and I have to wonder if she even knows the basic principles behind it and the benefits: she seems to have come from a pre-judged view that any flexion is bad: the studies do not conclude that! Margret also is critical of the teacher who seems to not be considering the possible dangers of each pose for the students from a perspective of osteoporosis. It is not obvious that Margret is really in a position to make that conclusion: did she talk to the teacher? Maybe the teacher already knew each students condition? We can only speculate because so few details were offered in her 2-minute video.

The main question for us in the Yin Yoga community is not Margrets condescending attitude towards yoga teachers in general and Yin Yoga in particular but rather whether she is correct in saying that we should not teach flexion of the spine in a Yin Yoga class. We should also try to answer Franks questions about which poses would be safe in a Yin Yoga class and how to teach someone who does have osteoporosis. Lets consider some poses:

Reclining Twists: Loren Fishman recommends reclining twist unless the student has colostomy, inguinal or abdominal hernia, larger herniated disc, spondylolisthesis. Note: this is a book for people with osteoporosis! This is a yang version: he suggests squeezing a block between the calves and lifting and lowering the legs from side to side. From this, I would predict that a passive reclining twist would be okay for students because a passive reclining twist will put a lot less stress on the vertebrae than the active version of this pose. He also offers several versions of seated twists, so we can assume that twists per se are not a big concern unless there are other conditions applying.

Forward bends: Here almost all yang-yoga teachers agree, and the 1984 study showed, active flexions of the spine are not helpful. It is easy to say, to be safe avoid Yin Yoga flexions but again that may be going too far. The bones still need some stress in order to avoid further deterioration. We dont know how much is too much or too little, and it varies by student anyway. You may want to play it safe and not allow any spinal flexion, but you may also want to offer some flexion to also play it safe. My recommendation: if a student tells you that she has osteoporosis, give her the options, explain why you are suggesting these options, ask her to discuss these options with her doctor and let her decide.

Snail Pose: Frank asked whether this pose would be safer reasoning that the spine is more or less straight. In my experience the spine is not straight in Snail and that this pose has the maximum stress along the vertebrae. This is not a pose I would recommend for anyone with osteoporosis.

Swan: I assume that Frank was asking about this, not due to worries about the spine, but worries about too much stress in the hips (which, after all, are the second most commonly affected area for osteoporosis.) Full Swan could be another nice backbend (extension) which could help the spine, but it also has the greatest stress on the hips sockets. Sleeping Swan has a neutral spine and less stress on the hip socket so may be okay. Loren Fishman has two variations: the first for students with osteoporosis is Swan using a chair and the second, for students with osteopenia is Swan with a bolster under the front hip. In my Yin Yoga classes, I dont use chairs so, to be safe, if a student told me that she has osteoporosis, I would suggest she skip Swan and do reclining Butterfly or just sit cross-legged: those poses give some stress to the hip sockets but are gentler compared to Swan. Another option is the Wall Eye-of-the-needle version.

Conclusion:

Every student is different. It is difficult in a class setting to accommodate everyones uniquenesses. Osteoporosis is a big concern and one that grows with age. Make sure if a student tells you that she has osteoporosis that she also lets her doctor know what she is planning to do in yoga. Explain the philosophy that too much stress can make matters worse, but no stress at all is also problematic. Depending upon where the problem is, some poses can be very therapeutic. It has to be up to the student to decide how to proceed: you are not a doctor and can not offer medical advice. At best you are a consultant offering suggestions, but do offer what you know. Above all else, be humble; what we know today may turn out to be totally wrong tomorrow.
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RonnieLynn



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Curve spine or not curve spine Reply with quote

I think each person going into a class of any kind should have done some research into what exactly they will be doing and ask that teacher before class starts about their issues. I think its unfair to put that responsibility onto the teacher. I feel this is common sence and I am the only one who knows what shape my bones are in, I take that risk going into a class. Also, nobody has to follow instruction to anything that hurts, if they do, they are the one who can chose not to do so, our choice. At one point in my life I would do anything one told me to do, I learned my lesson and we have the power to choose . I don't teach but am thinking to take some classes, so this being the first step in my decision of where to start. I have health issues and this is my job to see if its good for me or not, so Thanks for any info I am coming across, I look forward to learning about yoga. Very Happy
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acyog



Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: forward flexion and osteoporosis Reply with quote

This is a response to the April 15, 2012 postis study by Bernie. I am new to this forum, having come across it today when I was doing a google search on research that's been done on forward flexion and osteoporosis. I have not been able to find much beyond that 1984 study done at the Mayo Clinic. I am astounded that so many health and fitness organizations cite this study as a reason why forward flexion should not be done by people with osteoporosis. It was a very limited study with less than 100 people, a number of whom had a history of fractures. If you go to forums for people with osteoporosis, you will come across many comments from people about being afraid to do ordinary activities like bending over to get something out of the refrigerator. On the other hand, you see comments from people who've fallen off bikes and not broken a bone.

I think it's time to do more research on exercise for people with osteoporosis. I was diagnosed 11 years ago with the disease. Since 2007, I have taken regular exercise classes at my local Y, including weight lifting, yoga, and zumba. I also do 5k on a treadmill once a week and have started flamenco classes. In yoga classes, I do not modify any exercises, including forward folds, swan, pigeon, etc. I have not broken any bones and feel my body is much stronger and more flexible with the years of exercise. I worry that all the warnings about the dangers of forward flexion and twisting have prevented many people from getting the maximum benefit from exercise.
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Sarah Reinsdorf



Joined: 14 Nov 2017
Posts: 1
Location: Freiburg Germany

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I alway wonder when Paul Grilley say " stress the bones" if anybody ever did a study on whitch kind of stress (yin or yang) give the best bones density?
In other words : Is weight lifting better than yin yoga if you want to work against the deacrease bon density?
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Bernie



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 888
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sarah

i am not aware of any studies of yin yoga and its effect on bone density. When Paul and others recommend that yin yoga will be helpful, we are extrapolating the science we do know about how bones react to compressive stress to the stresses we create in our practice. The fact that bones react well to such stress has been known for over 100 years (see the work of Wolff, after whom Wolff's Law was named.)

Which is better: yin stress or weight lifting stress? It depends! Weight lifting is not available for every body, nor can it stress all the bones equally efficiently. But, having said that...why choose?! I do both Wink

Cheers
Bernie
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